Pubcrawl Comment Delivery

Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:58:00 +0200

adminsforum@hubzilla.org

Langdon Alger была создана публикация Mon, 26 Jun 2023 16:57:59 +0200

Pubcrawl Comment Delivery

Hi All,

Question about the pubcrawl addon and how it federates on post comments. I've just switched this instance over from streams to hubzilla, and noticed that when commenting on an activitypub post the delivery report will only deliver that comment to the original poster, or anyone else tagged immediately in the comment.

Looking at the post from other activitypub accounts that I have, I don't see my comment from hubzilla being updated (It does on the originating instance, as the delivery report shows). So, the report is accurate. Just the original poster will see any response my hubzilla account makes.

This is different from the way that streams would do it (try to deliver to all followers etc) and how every other piece of activitupub software seems to handle comments.

is this the intended behavior? I know Hubzilla is more security focused than lots of other pieces of software....If that's the case, is there a way to change that behavior to be more in line with my expectation of delivering comments to more than just the original poster?

Thanks!

show all 17 comments

Tue, 27 Jun 2023 08:33:46 +0200

Jupiter Rowland

jupiter_rowland@hub.netzgemeinde.eu

Actually, I'm not even sure if a comment on a post from e.g. Mastodon reaches the original poster at all if they aren't mentioned. I think I remember cases of commenting on a Mastodon post the Hubzilla way without a mention and the original poster not receiving anything.

I'm not sure if this is security-related because it doesn't even make use of Hubzilla's security features. It looks more like trying to mimic the behaviour of ActivityPub-based projects, especially Mastodon, where mentioning is necessary to reply to someone. So Pubcrawl seems to refuse to deliver a comment in a thread that was started on ActivityPub to anyone who isn't mentioned.

I must say that this is actually rather inconvenient, for on the other hand, Hubzilla's post editor behaves in threads started on ActivityPub like in threads started on Zot where mentions are decoration. It only automatically mentions the poster of a comment when replying to comment and nobody at all when replying to a post. Everyone else must be mentioned manually which not only is tedious, but it isn't made much easier by auto-complete since many users have moved so many times that you've sometimes got more than half a dozen accounts to choose from.

As (streams) proves that delivering comments to ActivityPub accounts without mentioning them, I'm wondering if this is really a deliberate choice by Hubzilla, or if it pays tribute to a limitation in Zot/6 which Nomad has overcome.

If the latter, a mention button for the comment editor under posts and automatic mentioning of everyone involved in the comment editor when replying to an ActivityPub comment would be nice.

Tue, 27 Jun 2023 20:29:54 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@Jupiter Rowland

I'm not sure on the hubzilla philosophy here, but if the pubcrawler behavior is deliberate it seems wrong from an activitypub point of view. If I'm following another person on calckey or akkoma, I'm used to seeing their comments on posts in my feed, so I can join in the conversation as well etc. I'm not 100% sure on mastodon, but, I think it's similar.

I'm not sure that a mention button would handle that case.

I think streams blasts the post out to inboxes of those in the conversation and any followers of your handle, which for a public post is what I would think is expected?

Tue, 27 Jun 2023 22:46:55 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

As someone who uses '>' as a quote prefix and never uses 'mentions', comments from hubzilla to other fediverse content (diaspora, mastodon, misskey) are seen without 'mentions'

Wed, 28 Jun 2023 02:33:27 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@hubzillar the comment will show up on the original post's comment section. The problem is nobody else in the thread will receive it without a mention on their instances, nor any channel followers on their instances

Wed, 28 Jun 2023 23:00:00 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

When viewing the entire thread on a mastodon server, control of a content is a mess compared to hubzilla. Extant behaviour is preferred to minimise unwanted content. Hubzilla permissions should be priority of people that want to post to as many people as possible. That can be achieved with a personal web site, or other spam services such as birdsite, twitter, etc..

Thu, 29 Jun 2023 05:10:58 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@hubzillar I'm thinking that I might not be clear in the issue that I see.

Two scenarios:

1. If I share a public post from hubzilla, that post is sent out to all of the instances that my hubzilla instance knows about (I think this is also the usual behavior of mastodon or calckey or akkoma etc). To be consumed in those public streams

2. If I comment on a public mastodon post, my comment is only sent to the original poster and anyone else I might specifically tag...

I would think the behavior in both scenarios should be exactly the same. I'm not sure if it isn't because of a design choice or if there's an issue?

Thu, 29 Jun 2023 16:00:34 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

Reading the mess that is mastodon, especially about the imminent arrival faecesbook, makes scenario '1' less and less desirable. For this (personal) reason, the option to view public content, is denied.

Current behaviour of scenario '2' is personally preferred. If the activitypub post is public, people should not need to be "tagged". This is analogous to subscription to a public mailing list and access via ATOM/RSS but with notification via e-mail, disabled. The reader that uses RSS chooses when, how to receive your content. It is arrogant to expect everyone to want to view your content, on your conditions. No thanks; again, personal opinion.

One of the best features of hubzilla is seeing activitypub content only from your (option filtered) connections. Then you go to the original activitypub server ('link to source') and view the entire thread if wanted.

Thu, 29 Jun 2023 16:05:23 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

By coincidence:
Mastodon Migration (@mastodonmigration@mastodon.online)

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 green IOTA🍃

Sorry to interup. Really appreciate your contributions, but as a courtesy could you edit your replies to only mention those active in the conversation. We are generating a lot of traffic and notifications for those not engaged here. Thanks!

Thu, 29 Jun 2023 20:18:18 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@hubzillar Ok, but this is currently how mastodon / activitypub works.  Why wouldn't we want to mirror the expected behavior of other activitypub servers?

I don't think the answer should be to "tag" everyone in the conversation.  I would think handling it the way streams does makes the most sense (and how I think activitypub works).  It sends out your comment to instances that your instance knows about & people that follow you.  I'd argue that in that sense, your content is basically like an RSS feed.  If they follow you, they want your content.

Again, I don't think everyone should get tagged etc.  But I think the info should come into your public stream to be displayed if you want it.

One of the best features of hubzilla is seeing activitypub content only from your (option filtered) connections. Then you go to the original activitypub server ('link to source') and view the entire thread if wanted.

I agree with this. But the current implementation doesn't show you content from a filtered (followed) connection, because it is only sent to the original post. You'd never see the person you follow commenting on any threads.

Thu, 29 Jun 2023 20:20:34 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@hubzillar

@Ben Royce 🇺🇦 green IOTA🍃

Sorry to interup. Really appreciate your contributions, but as a courtesy could you edit your replies to only mention those active in the conversation. We are generating a lot of traffic and notifications for those not engaged here. Thanks!

Yes, this is a problem with tagging everyone. I'd argue that this shouldn't be default behavior (even in mastodon)

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 11:55:26 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

@Langdon Alger

Ok, but this is currently how mastodon / activitypub works. Why wouldn't we want to mirror the expected behavior of other activitypub servers?

The purpose of fediverse should be the possibility of diverse behaviour. Difficult to find now but past comments by hubzilla founder and similar at the time, have made clear the weaknesses of activitypub. So no, a hubzilla user should not want to emulate activitypub servers.

I don't want anything to be seen unless actively requested.

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:03:56 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

> But the current implementation doesn't show you content from a filtered (followed) connection, because it is only sent to the original post.

This is preferable; then the original poster should be able to decide whether to make your comment visible to the entire thread. (S)He should be the person to make that decision, not you as a replier.

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:21:06 +0200

Langdon Alger

langdonalger@diablocanyon2.com

@hubzillar

I don't want anything to be seen unless actively requested.

That's the point I'm trying to make though. If you're following an account aren't you actively wanting to see their content? Why else would you be following them? The current implemention is leaving our part of that content.

This is preferable; then the original poster should be able to decide whether to make your comment visible to the entire thread. (S)He should be the person to make that decision, not you as a replier.

I don't recall this being an option on mastodon when I used it. It's not on my calckey or akkoma instances at least. There's definitely deleting and blocking etc

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 12:47:34 +0200

Scott M. Stolz

scott@loves.tech

@hubzillar

This is preferable; then the original poster should be able to decide whether to make your comment visible to the entire thread. (S)He should be the person to make that decision, not you as a replier.

Before the fediverse, there were forums, and the administrator of the forums could choose how replies were handled on a forum by forum basis, and a even user by user basis. The admin could choose to have posts held for moderation before being seen by everyone else, or they could allow posts to be visible immediately and then moderate them after being posted if necessary. This would also dictate whether email notifications went out or if it appeared in the RSS feed.

The notion that you could post to a thread and it be visible and then it not be distributed to people participating in the thread is, well, odd behavior. I can understand why they do it. It is to cut down on inter-server traffic, but still, it is odd behavior.

Twitter and Mastodon (which is a clone of a circa 2008 version of Twitter), were always horrible at conversations. They are not designed for conversations. They are designed for people to broadcast their thoughts. This is why it is almost impossible to follow a thread on Twitter and Mastodon. After a couple of forks in the conversation, no one can see the entire conversation anymore. People take stuff out of context because parts of the thread are missing or not obvious, and arguments ensue.

And you also have to factor in that people on Mastodon will expect your non-Mastodon replies to act consistent with Mastodon replies. If Mastodon doesn't distribute Mastodon replies to everyone in the thread, then perhaps we should not expect our non-Mastodon replies to either.

As mentioned, other platforms handle replies very differently. So maybe we just have to accept that not all platforms will handle our posts and replies the same.

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:43:39 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

> If you're following an account aren't you actively wanting to see their content?

Sometimes. Usage is similar to an RSS reader. When ready, will retrieve an RSS feed and even then only choose to read a particular post in more detail.

> Why else would you be following them?

See above; don't want to see everything, all the time

> The current implemention is leaving our part of that content.

They should join hubzilla and leave the pseudo-birdsite ;)

Fri, 30 Jun 2023 14:48:01 +0200

hubzillar

hubzillar@tiksi.net

> The notion that you could post to a thread and it be visible and then it not be distributed to people participating in the thread is, well, odd behavior.

Personally, this is preferable. When ready to look at the thread, will go to it! :)

Tue, 04 Jul 2023 22:03:03 +0200

HZ dev test only

jrp@devhub.kliklak.net

@Langdon Alger @Jupiter Rowland @hubzillar Seems a bug to me. I'd +1 a report on the git.